Jay Shetty & Matthew Walker ON How to Sleep Better

Are you sabotaging your health without even realizing it, just through your sleeping habits?

In this On Purpose episode, Jay Shetty sits down with Matthew Walker, world-renowned neuroscientist, sleep specialist, and bestselling author of Why We Sleep. He discusses one of the most overlooked aspects of health: sleep. As a professor of neuroscience and psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, and the founder of the Center for Human Sleep Science, Walker breaks down what it truly means to get a good night's sleep and how it impacts everything from memory to longevity.

The Four Pillars of Good Sleep

Matthew Walker explains to Jay Shetty that while the often-cited eight hours is not wrong, the ideal sleep range for adults lies between seven and nine hours. If you sleep for less than seven hours, you may notice measurable impairments in brain performance and body health.

He encourages the listeners to consider sleep beyond its duration, because there are also other factors that can impact your health. Instead, he introduces the four macros of sleep: quantity, quality, regularity, and timing—abbreviated as QQRT.

1. Quantity refers to total sleep time.
2. Quality addresses whether your sleep is uninterrupted or disrupted.
3. Regularity refers to going to bed and waking at the same time every day.
4. Timing involves aligning sleep with your natural circadian rhythm.

Chronotypes and Circadian Mismatch

To maximize the duration and quality of your sleep, it is essential to. understand your chonotype: are you a morining person or a night owl? Walker told Jay Shetty that this trait is predominantly inhereted, but through behavioral changes you can make minor adjustments.

A study conducted in Australia attempted to pull back night owls through interventions like morning light exposure, early meals, and avoiding naps.¹ The results showed that night owls managed to shift their bedtime by just over an hour, but not more. So, they understood that fighting your biology tends to backfire. Walker suggests aligning your lifestyle with your natural tendencies, rather than imposing an unnatural sleep pattern, which will result in better sleep quality.

Practical factors such as jobs, children, and partners often take precedence over biological needs. The neuroscientist suggests prepping your evening routine earlier to ease into bedtime. He told Jay Shetty that, in order to minimize the mismatch of your circadian rhythm, you must make minor lifestyle adjustments to align with your chronotype. These will eventually lead to significant sleep improvements.

What to Do If You’re Always Tired

Matthew Walker discusses with Jay Shetty what to do if you still wake up tired, even after getting enough sleep. He refers to his QQRT framework and suggests checking for sleep fragmentation if the quantity is fine. Usually, disorders such as sleep apnea may cause sleep fragmentation.

To better understand your sleeping patterns, Walker recommends using apps such as SnoreLab to track nighttime breathing and identify patterns. He also points out other factors that can contribute to fragmented sleep, such as consuming caffeine late in the day, drinking alcohol in the evening, and undiagnosed anxiety.

The neuroscientist told Jay Shetty that even if someone thinks they're sleeping enough through the night, interruptions in sleep cycles—especially in the deep non-REM sleep—can lead to unrefreshing sleep. So, he encourages the listeners to analyze whether there are other factors to consider besides the duration of their sleep, and, if necessary, to use technology to track their sleep patterns as the first step toward long-term improvement.

Sleep Apnea

Matthew Walker estimates that around 80% of individuals with sleep apnea remain undiagnosed. This condition happens when the airways become partially or completely obstructed during sleep, leading to episodes of oxygen deprivation and sudden awakenings, often without conscious awareness.

These interruptions disrupt sleep, hinder oxygen flow, and dramatically increase the risk for heart disease, diabetes, and even cancer. Walker told Jay Shetty that mild sleep apnea can still involve multiple episodes each night. To understand if they are, too, at risk, he urges listeners to complete the STOP-Bang questionnaire or utilize the SnoreLab app to assess their potential risk.

If you happen to score high on these tests, you may want to consult a specialist to improve your condition, as Walker explains that treating sleep apnea often leads to improvements in appetite control, energy level, and mental clarity.

Sleep and Metabolism

Walker and Jay Shetty discuss how one night of poor sleep can trigger cravings for sugar and physical weakness. The neuroscientist explains how poor sleep alters appetite-regulating hormones: by reducing leptin, which signals when we are full, and increasing ghrelin, which stimulates hunger. Unexpectedly, even four or five nights of poor sleep can significantly alter these hormone levels.

The neuroscientist noted that the lack of sleep raises endocannabinoid levels, mimicking the munchies effect we see with cannabis. Additionally, brain scans reveal that people who don't sleep enough have reduced activity in rational decision-making areas, while heightened activity has been recorded in reward centers, leading them to crave sugary, fatty foods.

When to Eat Before Bed

Matthew Walker explained to Jay Shetty that eating three to four hours before bed isn't always necessary. For most people, eating up to one hour before going to bed doesn't significantly impact their sleep. However, if you consume spicy foods or high amounts of sugar in the evening, you may experience higher core body temperature and acid reflux.

To ensure a better night's sleep, the neuroscientist suggests opting for slow-digesting complex carbohydrates and protein, such as yogurt with oats. The key is testing what food works for your body, rather than blindly following trends. Walker adds that both sugar and spices increase internal body temperature, and since the body needs to cool down to fall asleep, they can create physiological barriers to restful sleep.

Melatonin and Sleeping Pills

Jay Shetty addresses the rise of melatonin gummies and sleep medications. Walker explains that while melatonin regulates the timing of sleep, it does not generate the sleep itself. In some instances, melatonin can help with jet lag or circadian shifts, but it isn’t exceptionally effective as a true sleep aid, as it only reduces the time it takes to fall asleep by approximately two minutes on average.

Moreover, the neuroscientist warns against high doses of melatonin, especially in children, as studies showed it may stunt hormonal growth in adolescent rats.² Additionally, unregulated supplements that you can buy freely can contain significantly inaccurate dosages. 

Other conventional sleep medications like Ambien induce sedation instead of promoting natural sleep, which can negatively affect memory retention and deep sleep quality. Newer medications, such as DORA, block the chemical that prompts wakefulness and may offer better results with fewer side effects. In any case, Walker and Jay Shetty highlight the importance of consulting a specialist before taking any medicine.

Sleep Disruptors and How to Fall Back Asleep

Matthew Walker told Jay Shetty what to do when you wake up at 3 a.m. and can't go back to sleep. He recommends a three-tiered strategy:

1. First, eliminate clocks from your bedroom to prevent anxiety.
2. Second, engage your mind in activities other than your thoughts,such as meditation, body scan, sleep stories, or even detailed visualizations of routines, like taking your dog for a walk.
3. Third, if fragmented sleep is chronic, try sleep restriction therapy,specifically, time in bed restriction, which enhances sleep by minimizing unproductive time in bed.

Matthew Walker revealed to Jay Shetty that caffeine has a half-life of five to six hours and a quarter-life of ten to twelve hours. It means that consuming an espresso at noon still leaves 25% of its caffeine in your system by midnight. Therefore, he suggests limiting your coffee intake to a maximum of three cups and cutting it off at least 10 hours before bedtime.

Alcohol is even more harmful, the neuroscientist explained. Although it can help you fall asleep, alcohol disrupts sleeping patterns, suppresses REM dream sleep, and triggers the sympathetic nervous system. Even a single glass of wine can decrease deep sleep and hinder emotional recovery. Nowadays, these habits have become normalized, and misinformation regarding alcohol as a sleep aid persists, especially in social contexts. That's why the neuroscientist urges the listeners to think about the long-term consequences and make mindful decisions regarding substance consumption.

Sleep as an Investment in Tomorrow

Matthew Walker calls out the cultural glorification of sleep deprivation. It's common to hear more and more phrases such as "I'll sleep when I'm dead" in our modern society. He explains to Jay Shetty that this mindset not only contributes to a shortened lifespan but also severely diminishes your healthspan, which is the period of life spent in good health.

Unfortunately, it often takes a diagnosis or scare for people to start prioritizing sleep. Matthew Walker shares scientific findings that illustrate how just one week of sleeping for six hours a night can alter and disrupt the activity of over 700 genes, many of which are instrumental in regulating stress, inflammation, and immune function.³

Therefore, Matthew Walker encourages everyone to take a proactive step, not later, but tonight. Sleep is not a luxury or a weakness, but a powerful investment in health, mental clarity, and resilience.

More From Jay Shetty

Listen to the entire On Purpose with Jay Shetty podcast episode “Sleep Expert Matthew Walker: Do THIS to Sleep Through The Night And Never Wake Up Tired Again” now in the iTunes store or on Spotify. For more inspirational stories and messages like this, check out Jay’s website at jayshetty.me.

¹Crowley SJ, Velez SL, Killen LG, Cvengros JA, Fogg LF, Eastman CI. Extending weeknight sleep of delayed adolescents using weekend morning bright light and evening time management. Sleep. 2023 Jan 11;46(1):zsac202. doi: 10.1093/sleep/zsac202. PMID: 36006948; PMCID: PMC9832518. 

²Venugopal SP. Effect of melatonin on the onset of puberty in male juvenile rats. Anat Cell Biol. 2019 Sep;52(3):286-295. doi: 10.5115/acb.18.122. Epub 2019 Aug 26. PMID: 31598358; PMCID: PMC6773899. 

³Sample, Ian. “Sleeping Less than Six Hours a Night Skews Activity of Hundreds of Genes.” Web log. The Guardian (blog), February 25, 2013. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/feb/25/sleeping-six-hours-night-activity-genes.