Jay Shetty & James Sexton ON Talk to Your Spouse

Is getting married truly a reckless activity, given the overwhelming statistics about failure and heartbreak?

In this On Purpose episode, Jay Shetty interviewed James Sexton, divorce attorney and author of How to Stay in Love. Sexton has spent 25 years facilitating the demise of unhappy marriages at the highest level and gained a solid perspective on love and commitment. He touches on the most common reasons for divorce and how communication and vulnerability play a key role in a relationship.

The Frightening Fail Rate of Marriage

James Sexton told Jay Shetty that, statistically, over 50% of marriages end in divorce.¹ He argues that, given its high rate, one could argue that getting married is a reckless act. If you add to the divorce percentage also those who choose to stay in an unhappy marriage for various reasons, you could easily add 10%-20%, which would push the true failure rate of marriage closer to 70%.

If any other investment would show such a high risk, people would universally avoid it. Yet, when it comes to the institution of marriage, people still take their chances. Sexton added that 86% of people who divorce remarry within five years.² To him, this shows the deep need for connection for humans, and what an important role marriage still plays in our society.

Wedding vs. Marriage

Culturally, marriage is still considered the right, natural thing to do for a couple. Yet Sexton proposed another perspective: instead of congratulating the newlyweds, ask them what problem marriage is the solution to? For most other things in our lives, we have a clear answer, but not for this one. Moreover, questioning someone's intention to marry is considered rude or pessimistic.

Since the boom of social media, people dream of having a gorgeous wedding, as seen online. But while everyone focuses on the event, nobody prepares you for a marriage, Jay Shetty noted. Sexton agrees, saying "I do" doesn't mean that all will be well, but it means that, in the best-case scenario, you'll do your best to be there for each other, come what may.

The True Courage of Commitment

Although he handles divorces regularly, James Sexton told Jay Shetty that he has never lost his appreciation for the beauty of love. He admitted he still cries when attending a wedding, despite his profession. He has seen love turn into war and good people at their absolute worst during divorce, yet he finds it such a courageous act to love.

Getting married means also becoming vulnerable in front of your partner. He told Jay Shetty that, logically, that should scare someone, but humans find the reward of love higher than the potential pain of separation.

Disconnection Kills Marriages

Divorce happens for a multitude of reasons. Sexton told Jay Shetty that the surface-level reasons, such as cheating or financial issues, aren't always the true root cause. He explains that these behaviors stem from a need for control, and that if you believe that constantly monitoring your spouse's whereabouts or finances will earn you a loving marriage, your relationship is bound to fail.

Sexton named disconnection as the number one marriage killer; it can be disconnection from each other or even from yourself. Then, there's the failure to see your partner and make them feel seen. It's easy to take someone for granted if they are always there for you, he warned. Complacency leads to misery in Sexton's experience; fighting over dirty dishes is never about the dishes, but about a deeper issue in that marriage.

There are small, compound actions that lead to disconnection, and James Sexton described it like death by a thousand paper cuts. Yet you can also do the opposite, he told Jay Shetty. You can practice small acts of connection with your spouse every day to ensure they feel seen and loved.

Learning Love from Others

James Sexton explained to Jay Shetty that people approach relationships based on patterns learned in early childhood. If someone grew up witnessing parental substance use or intimate partner abuse, they are more prone to repeat those toxic behaviors in their own marriages, because they often don't recognize the environment as abnormal.

There is no class to teach one how to love, so we all learn as we go. Sexton told Jay Shetty that it's challenging to find positive role models in the modern world, especially for young men. He shared that his positive examples of strength and self-sacrifice come from literature or film. He finds that we need more real-life heroes to actively demonstrate how to love and receive love, creating an orbit of healthy relationships from which others can learn.

You can't become good at something you do in isolation, and that applies to loving your partner as well. Jay Shetty shared a story from his time in the monastery, when he took a three-day train trip, and meditated only at the stops. His mentor suggested he found peace amidst chaos because life doesn't stop for us to get comfortable first.

Non-Defensive Communication

There are predictable conflicts in a long-term relationship, Sexton said. One example is the period after a child is born, when a male partner may feel neglected and no longer a priority for his wife. While these feelings are understandable, Sexton told Jay Shetty that communication makes the difference here. You can share how you feel, but in a way that isn't an attack on your partner.

James Sexton believes you can parse almost any emotion to deepen the connection rather than induce defensiveness. He suggests that couples should lead with vulnerability and positive desire, letting the other know what you are lacking and what you wish for. It's scary to ask for help, he added, but every time your partner reacts positively to your vulnerability, your intimate connection becomes even stronger.

Modern Marriage Contract

Jay Shetty asks James Sexton what provisions he would include if he were to design a legal contract for modern love. Sexton suggests incorporating specific behaviors aimed at preventative maintenance, such as a mandatory weekly check-in, where partners must share three things:

1. Something the partner did that made them feel loved.
2. Something the partner did that made them feel less loved or unseen, providing an opportunity to confidently express to their partner where they went astray.
3. Something the partner could do this week that might make them feel loved.

Another key contractual element would be a commitment to receive difficult feedback as a gesture of care and an intention to protect the relationship, rather than perceiving it as an attack. And lastly, Sexton believes that sex is the glue to a relationship, so he would add the commitment to being each other's source of intimate touch, even holding hands or placing a hand on the partner's leg, and this shouldn't be replaced by surrogate activities such as infidelity or porn.

Everyone Has a Prenup

Even a couple who don't write a prenup have one, Sexton told Jay Shetty. It's up to you if you prefer to draft it yourself or leave it to the government. Marriage is the most legally significant thing most people do in their lives, yet there isn't much explanation about what it entails. Governments can change the contract rules without a couple's consent unless they have a prenuptial agreement in place. This is why Sexton believes you must take matters into your own hands and decide the terms yourselves, not let the government decide for you.

Yet having the prenup conversation is one of the most difficult conversations a couple can have, Sexton told Jay Shetty. It's often met with resistance or even seen as a lack of confidence in the relationship. However, Sexton believes it teaches the couple vital skills to navigate marriage. Instead of seeing it as a confrontation, reframe it as a discussion around mutual safety. He recommends asking each partner what they need to feel safe – this way, the conversation becomes an act of love and protection, rather than an adversarial negotiation.

When Divorce Is Necessary

James Sexton told Jay Shetty that people often wait until it's too late to seek help; the same is true of marriages. If all efforts to bridge a gap between the partners seem in vain and one of the parties is still completely unwilling to make amends, Sexton believes that happily ever after can also mean finding happiness apart.

When asked whether to stay together for the kids, Sexton cited studies that show that parental conflict is more harmful for children than divorce.³ He told Jay Shetty that, if a home is an ecosystem surrounded by conflict, staying together doesn't help the children. He added that the skills required to be a good parent and a good spouse aren't the same.

James Sexton also shared that, statistically, women file for divorce in 70% of the cases.⁴ He explained that the high number is often because men left for milk and never came back. When the men abandon their families, women are forced to file for divorce, to secure necessary judicial orders for mortgage payments and child support. 

More From Jay Shetty

Listen to the entire On Purpose with Jay Shetty podcast episode “Divorce Lawyer James Sexton: #1 Conversation Every Couple Should Have Before it’s Too Late (Use THIS 3-Step Script TODAY!)” now in the iTunes store or on Spotify. For more inspirational stories and messages like this, check out Jay’s website at jayshetty.me.

¹Posillico, Caitlin. “What Percentage of Marriages End in Divorce?” Putting Methods to the Madness, QMSS Blog, University of Michigan, January 20, 2023. https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/qmss/2023/01/20/what-percentage-of-marriages-end-in-divorce/ 

²University of York. “Rowing Parents Might Be More Harmful to Child Development Than Divorce, Study Suggests.” University of York News, April 12, 2017. https://www.york.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2017/research/rowing-harmful/

³Turvey, Catherine. “Women More Likely Than Men to Initiate Divorces, But Not Non-Marital Breakups.” American Sociological Association News, August 22, 2015. https://www.asanet.org/women-more-likely-men-initiate-divorces-not-non-marital-breakups/